[ this seminar covers all sorts of topics having to do with Islam, for evangelical Christians, fascinating stuff..this guy has an incredible head full of knowledge about anything & everything having to do with Christianity & islam &, here's a few of my notes] "So I'm at this "Engaging Islam" conference, led by Jay Smith at a church in Upland. Jay, apparently, has a lot of experience in debating Muslims with the hope of turning them to Christ, & particularly at "Speakers Corner" in London (I've been there once, back in1988 when I was doing a semester in Spain, & we went to London for spring break). This is a two-day conference, but I missed the opening session last night. This morning Jayintroduced himself to the group, mentioning he grew up in India, and now spends a lot of time in England (but apparently his nationality is American). Jay began by talking about different types of evangelists: some who never actually do evangelism (couch potatoes),others who are gung-ho & feel guilty when they don't ("rambo evangelists"), then those who think they need to have the answer to every question before they can do evangelism ("professional students"), as well as those who don't think their evangelistic efforts make a difference ("whipped dogs"), among others. He notes that there are two basic types of evangelism; 1)Irenic (relational) & 2) confrontational, and that most people should be irenic, not confrontational (unless you're specially trained). Some people object to mentioning Christ to Muslims (who may be co-workers, etc) because they are afraid of losing friends, but Jay says, don't worry, b/c Muslims do not encounter enough positive,moral,Christianity in America. They see a lot of porno &hear profanity, sometimes even amongst so-called Christians & this gives them the wrong impression. 2) afraid you can't answer all questions. Be honest & tell them "I'll get back to you" and recommens Answer-Islam.org, 3) always carry a Bible & give chapter & verse when quoting it. Muslims don't want religious opunion. He mentions Koran 29.46 ("Don't argue w/ Christians") & 4.136 "Believe in the Bible". He mentions that "only 15% of Muslims know Arabic so that when some people claim the only true Koran is the Arabic Koran, ask them if the other 85% are false Muslims. Importance of "Son of God"in Bible...which is a big sticking point for Muslims. They ask how can Jesus bethe son of God. How can God become a man? They say its "unbecoming." Jay says, conversely, how can God be limited? If he wants to be human, He can do it, & he finds it AWEsome that God would do so. Jay also mentions points in Bible where God did appear on earth, not just as Son of God, but in the burning bush, etc. Jay questions the so-called "Chrislam" movement (an attempt to merge Christianity with Islam). He talks about going to mosques and how some formerMuslims can feel the "demons" when they go back. Somebody asked a question about Fuller & their attempt to compromise the Bible in order to reach Muslims (taking out "Sonof God"). Jay mentioned Dudley Woodberry(I remember sitting in afew mission classes led by Dudley). Apparently there's a name for this movement, called EWI (encountering the world of Islam?). I don't remember if Dudley used that acronym when I was there (I found this online: "Fuller Theological Seminary in California is using a federal grant from the Department of Justice to launch a one-million-dollar interfaith program with Muslims. This program will focus on building the broken relationship between Christians and Muslim, helping Christians to gain deeper understanding of Muslims. The program's code of ethics restricts proselytizing for two years and affirms a mutual belief in one God..."
http://www.christianpost.com/news/objection-to-fuller-seminary-s-interfaith-program-6947/ ) ; also ("The underlying assumption for both documents is obvious, i.e., that both Muslims and Christians believe in one God. Both are monotheistic religions. Both have common traditions and common roots. As is stated in the Introduction to the first document: "Thus, despite their differences, Islam and Christianity not only share the same Divine Origin and the same Abrahamic heritage, but the same two greatest commandments." As a result, it is assumed that both Christians and Muslims not only believe in one God, but they worship, serve and believe in the same God. Although the outward observance of each religion is very different, at the heart they are essentially the same, or at least equivalent. Such teaching is extremely popular right now. It is commonly accepted in many religious circles, even Christian, even among some evangelicals. However, it is not a Biblical concept, nor is it consistent with the orthodox, historic faith of the Christian church. In a word, it is heresy. Let us explore why we are asserting this..."
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Deleon/who_you_gonna_serve.htm )
Jay is absoltely AGAINST removing Son of God (or God as Father) to appease Muslims. He mentions an article in Christianity Today (current issue) that talks about it (with reference to Rick Brown versus George Houssney I found a little info on them at Rick Brown
http://strategyleader.org/worldview/worldvbrown.html
"Georges Houssney – Lebanese born, is Author of “ Engaging Islam” and Director of Horizons International in Boulder, Colorado..."
http://biblicalmissiology.org/author/ghoussney/ )
JAY also takes about "Issa" (name for Jesus in Koran) versus "yeshua" (used elsewheee). He says Issa is not arabic, but a borrowed word, and that the Jesus of the Koran doesn't die on the cross, nor does theJesus of the Koran say the right things at the right time (as opposed to the Jesus of the Bible who is chronologically in sequence with events of the place & time he was in) . He talks about Muslims trying to trap Christians in arguments about the Trinity, asking us where the word is found in the Bible. Jay says don't worry about that argument but turn instead to the fact that "Elohim" in the Old Testament is actually a plural word (ie "gods"" he says it actually means "three or more") and how do Muslims explain that? (He notes its also a tripping point for Jews & the Shema, Deut 6.4?). He also says its important NOT to use the King James Bible when debating Muslims (even though he loves the King James ) because of 1 John 5.7 which is not found in early manuscrripts (and Muslims know this & will use it to trip up Christians) He says use NIV w/ Muslims. He says the best verse in defense of the Trinity is Matt 28.19-20 "Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit." And also you can counter-argue with Muslims that their word for "oneness" (Tawhid) is not found in the Koran. Healso added something allah being connected to the "hubal" (hubal is the formal name for allah, & further connected thhis to some verse about "3 daughters" which he says are "satanic verses" (he went very fast over this & I didn't catch everything, but its something you can "google" FMI (for more info).
The next point is that Muslims accuse the Bible as being more violent than the Koran and quote a verse from Judges(?) Where God gives the command to kill every man, woman, & child. Jay says this was a specific command for that time & place & it was actually God doing the killing. The Muslims also point to verses such as Jesus saying "Î didn't come to bring peace but a sword" (Matt 10.34?) which Jay says is paradoxical because that sword is actually the sword used against us as Christians, not Christians using the sword versus others. It's the guarantee that we will be persecuted for righteousness sake (he also points out that the "sword" is also used simply in reference to a common "dagger" in the Bible that people used for eating & cleaning their fingernails, etc (like a pocket knife?) Muslims may also point to the "crusades" & the "inquisition" as proof of Christians being violent, but Jay says this could also be people "fraudulently using Christ's name" which is a good point..namely that actions that are a contradiction to Christ, but are done in the name of Christ, are fraudulent. ...(to be continued)
...then Jay moved on to to the issue of Muslims claiming the koran to be perfect in every way (ie "inimitable", "superior", "no contradictions", etc). He said that one time in response to such a claim he simply started reading Psalm 23 & asked the Muslims "How is your Koran superior to this?" And that this quieted them. He mentioned the name Theo Noldeke for further reference. As for other claims such as the Koran being most universal & a depiction of paradise he mentions the problem of the degradation of women in Islam.
As for the "more peaceful" than Christians claim, Jay noted that there are 149 sword verses in Koran & that the only hospitality commanded in the koran is from muslims to muslims, nobody else; whereas we are called to help strangers, love neighbors etc, As for the claim that Koran is "collated perfectly" Jay note that Muhammad died in 632 yet the Koran was not even commplete as of 705. He mentioned "palimpsests" that reveal the koran has been re-written (he mentioned Keith small as a source & "no complete koran until 10th century") and in a shocking statement he said the "Koran was not solidified until 1924."
After a break Jay began to compare the supporting consistent evidence for a Bible that has not changed over the centuries (in contrast to the koran). He began talking about NT manuscripts (approx 24,000 in existence). He went thru the list of names of the different manuscripts (flashback to seminary) & the different materials they were written upon, noting that the the sinaiticus of the 4th century was written on long-lasting parchment that was the equivalent of 52 gazelles. He mentions "eyewitness accounts" as well as"hostile witnesses" et. He talks about almost 20,000 translations of the Bible and then, most strikingly, about the early church fathers &their letters (Clement,Eusebius, Hippolytus, Justin Martyr, Ireanaeus, Tertullian, Origen) and notes that there are numerous quotes in their letters that match the Bible, and when put together collectively they almost reproduce the Bible.
He mentions "tablets". (Armana, Ebla,Mari, Nuzi) that corroborate the Abraham story, as well as other parts of the Bible, and that the "stones cry out for us..." He said something about Genesis 14.8 & trade routes & about Sodom & Gomorrah, and something about the Ebla tablet corroboration (apparently not many manuscripts speak of a sodom & gomorrah)
He talks about the Hittites (modern day turkey & iraq) who invented chariots & their lineage of Medes (destroyed Babylon?) & Kurds . He mentions the Assyrians. The last point I heard him make (unfort. I had to leave a little early) was something about the book of Daniel & the "4 kingdoms" and he mentions how the name balshazzer was corroborated archeologically (having to do with the "Nabonidus Drum). All of this, by the way, was accompanied by overhead powerpoint with more details than I can cover here. Apparently there is also an audio of it for free online (not sure where yet) & also a dvd for a nominal fee.
All the details & info was fascinating but also helpful was Jay's enthusiasm for the subject. You could feel his interest in it, both intellectually & emotionally. He would often make a good point & follow it with "Don't you love our Jesus?" Or a little cluck & "Boy I love my Bible, don't you?" This guy knows Arabic as well, so he would periodically add a point about Arabic to everybody's astonishment. HE also had Q&A After each session. I wanted to ask questions but held back, b/c I thought people might think they were too political in nature (I have a website devoted to stopping terrorism) . If I said "terrorism" for example I can just imagine everybody thinking "Oh this guy thinks every Muslim is a terrorist." No I don't. By the way, think about how much of a "sweeping generalization" some people do in reverse when they say "Americans think all Muslims are terrorist."
I figure if Jay is fluent in Arabic & a loyal American, he may even be an advisor for the US government on Muslim issues. But the audience defines the nature of the Q&A and I didn't want to step on any toes.
Also see http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/june/21.34.html?start=1
Rick Brown
http://strategyleader.org/worldview/worldvbrown.html
"Georges Houssney – Lebanese born, is Author of “ Engaging Islam” and Director of Horizons International in Boulder, Colorado..."
http://biblicalmissiology.org/author/ghoussney/
